The All Access Podcast

Lane Kipp: All right.

Well, welcome to our podcast
and I'm excited today.

I have a good friend and like a mentor
of mine, Raymond Harris joining, and

I'm really excited to have Raymond.

So Raymond is here in Dallas with me,
uh, an architect over 40 years, venture

capitalists, and, uh, has been involved
in a lot of ministries and businesses

and, uh, Has authored several books and
his latest one, Enduring Wealth, which

we'll talk more about, uh, is awesome.

Highly recommend.

So, Raymond, thanks for, for joining me.

Raymond Harris: Thanks, Lane.

Thanks for having me.

This is great.

Lane Kipp: Yeah, well, I want to, I'll
just jump right in, uh, to, to the book

and just like we're having conversations
at Velvet Taco, I really want people

to hear your perspective on giving.

Because I, I, Resonate with it.

And I want more people
to have this perspective.

And so before we get into that,
I do want to, I was just curious.

I don't know if I've asked this before,
but you shared a little bit about it in

your book and I don't think I even really
knew it, but how you even got interested

in stewardship and giving well, what's
the, what's the origin story there?

Raymond Harris: Well, I would, I would
say that I didn't intentionally become a

generous person or a steward, if you will.

It was kind of an evolution of
growing as a believer in Christ.

And I became a follower of Christ in
college, I was already a believer.

Since about nine years old, but in
college, I became serious about my

faith Mary Della, I got married our
senior year in College and one of the

first acts that we did as a married
couple Was we gave away our largest?

Wedding gift we felt compelled to give
that to the church and we didn't have

anything when we got married because
you got remember we're poor college

students and We He gave away our first
large wedding gift, which was cash.

And that started our journey of
becoming donors, or what I would

call our pathway to stewardship.

Primarily learning, bit by
bit, how to be generous.

I think God's generous with us, and so
We, we started out, um, with what a lot

of kids would do, is try to give away
10%, which we were taught in church

that that's the tithe, and, but I, I was
conflicted with that, because I said,

why is 10 percent the, the standard?

And so, as I grew up in the faith,
and as I got older, and as I became

a, a professional, and God gave me the
ability to generate wealth, I said,

well, If God owns everything and he's
entrusted to me, why do I give 10%?

I realized that really, it's
all his anyway, and that I

am just to take care of it.

So it was a process.

It was a long journey of stewardship,
beginning in, in college years.

And then as my wife and I began
to mature as believers and have

Children and get involved in business,
very slowly became more and more

generous, not because generosity is
good, but because we just wanted to.

Uh, take good care of the
things that God had given us.

The other thing, uh, Lane, that I
learned early, uh, is that I never took

possession of the money that I earned.

I, I only used it.

I didn't possess it.

So it's really hard to give money when
you possess it and when it's yours and

you go, golly, you know, I can use this.

When it's not yours and you're
just taking care of it, then

it's a little easier to give it.

So,

Lane Kipp: Yeah, I love that.

But at some point.

That transition between being generous and
being a steward happened, and I know it's

over years of trying to give well, and
you talk about some of the difficulties

of it in your book and What was that
transit like were there specific instances

that sparked that or was it just a

Accumulation of experiences,

Raymond Harris: it's a
long, it's a long journey.

Uh, I don't think anyone
instantly becomes a steward.

I think it has to come to the
realization we're not taught in

church that God owns everything,
that, um, we're merely caretakers.

Uh, what church basically teaches most
people is that, We have stewardship

Sundays, we want to be generous,
we want to give to the church.

I think most pastors don't have
a really good handle on, on,

on what real stewardship is.

Stewardship means that you
don't have rights or ownership.

And Americans tend to think that
they're self made, you know, hey, I've,

I've gone to school, I've built this
business, I've done this by pulling

up my bootstraps and working hard.

The reality is that If God owns
everything, He chooses to give

wealth to those that He chooses.

And He only, He, He chooses to give
wealth to who He gives to, and it's

beyond my understanding why He does that.

Uh, and it's beyond my
understanding why He gives

certain men wealth and not others.

If you say, well, I work really hard,
well, there's a lot of people in the

third world that work really, really
hard and they still are very poor.

And, uh, so, just because you work hard.

doesn't necessarily
mean you'll be wealthy.

Now, there are principles, obviously,
in Proverbs that tell us about

the benefits of working hard.

And, and that's good to understand that.

But once I understood that God entrusts
wealth to men and women, who each uses is

what we do with it, that's so important.

And so we all hear about the downfall
of having wealth, because a lot

of wealthy people don't use it.

for the benefit of others,
they use it selfishly, and you

say, well, then wealth is bad.

And no, wealth is actually not bad.

If God gives wealth, then that wealth
is actually a good gift from God.

It's what we do with it that
counts and how we use it.

And it's my personal conviction that
the reason God gives certain men wealth

is that he wants that person to take
care of his kingdom, We're the hands

and feet of Christ, with the wealth in
our hands to take care of the kingdom.

So that was, that's a long winded way
of saying it's a journey that I've

had to be on for a good number of
years, that that I had to discover.

And that discovery came through
reading several really good authors

like Larry Burkett, Howard Dayton,
who both had ministries about finance,

but they also had the heart of the
heart behind how to handle money.

Not just how to handle money.

What is the purpose of it?

So those men helped me and then as I got
to be involved with other, uh, men in

ministry, uh, that handled money then I
began to understand like Ron Blue and, uh,

things like Kingdom Advisors and guys like
that that really had a handle on money.

So, it's been a long process.

Um, I also realized that when I made money
in my firm, I had to do something with it.

I either could spend it, I could save
it, I could give it to the government,

I give it to my kids, I could squander
it, or I could do something with

it that built a kingdom that would
last well beyond, uh, my lifetime.

And so I had to go through, um, a
process of what do I do with money

that I earn or money that I save.

It's, it's a hard issue, so.

Lane Kipp: Yeah.

Yeah.

And one thing I love, uh, we always
talk about what you call economic

engines and, uh, you've honestly really
redeemed my perspective on business

and with this term economic engine.

So I'd love to hear more about.

That how you came up with that idea.

I work with a lot of millennials who
want to give well, they're starting these

businesses, they're trying to grow them
or they're developing their careers.

And I, to be honest, it's kind of stolen
your term, economic engines and helped

trying to pass that along and help
them have a better perspective on their

income and how to use it to sustain.

and also to encourage
ministries to be sustainable.

Um, yeah.

What was, tell me more about

Raymond Harris: Well,

Lane Kipp: economic engines.

Raymond Harris: I would say that
I began to really focus on that

probably, um, 15, 15 years ago,
maybe, uh, maybe a little longer than

that, between 15 and 20 years ago.

You see, I was kind of taught in
church and through what I would read,

uh, that the, the way a steward or
Christian, uh, operated in the kingdom

that wasn't in ministry was basically,
basically a funder of ministry.

And so our purpose was to
make money and give it away.

And, um, that in and of itself is
not bad, but it's not the only way.

And so I began to struggle with why do
I work so hard, and then I, I work, I

work so hard to generate income, then
I'm very diligent to save the income,

and then I pay taxes on the income.

And then why do I give it to others
to spend, and in some cases, waste it?

And so it became very frustrating to
me to say, is my purpose to give money,

my money away to others to spend?

And sometimes they don't spend it
very well, because they don't know

how to handle money very well.

Most ministry leaders are not
really good at financial matters.

Um, it's not a criticism, it's
just an observation I've made.

So why do I work so
hard to give money away?

And I began to think, well, what?

Now, that seems to me to be a,
a secular and sacred divide.

I make money through secular business
to give ministries money to operate.

And in God's kingdom, there's not
really a sacred and secular divide.

So then I begin to think, could
I use secular business, which

is actually very holy in God's
economy, could I use business?

To become a holy endeavor
to fund the kingdom.

And could I do it for profit?

And then the thought occurred to me
is, I don't think that they're not

for profit organizations in heaven.

God owns everything.

He created business.

God is the greatest capitalist.

Why do we not use those, uh, that
idea in building the kingdom?

And so, as I began to think, well,
gosh, if we could build kingdom

businesses, economic engines that are
self funding and self perpetuating,

then that's really a pretty good deal.

And so I, I said, Well,
how do you do that?

I, I, I thought, well, use the same
principles you do to build any business.

It's just what you do with, with
that business to build a kingdom.

So we've done things such as
being in the movie business.

Well, you say, well, the movie
business isn't a ministry.

Well, yes, it is.

Because A lot of ministries want a whole
bunch of money to go make a Christian

movie, and so what we made were really
good movies that had a kingdom impact,

and you could make money in the theaters.

And, and so we built, I helped two
young men start a movie company that

became now the largest, truly the
largest movie company, uh, in the

world now for faith based movies.

And, and their latest project
Amazon has given them 250

million to do their next project.

That's big.

That's big business.

Lane Kipp: Yeah.

Raymond Harris: Helped start some
agricultural projects in Zambia

and in the central part of Africa.

And those are all for profit businesses
to hire as many people as possible to

share the gospel in doing so and to
provide good products for the ultra poor.

Um, started up, um, business and uh,
employs people, provides good food for

people, and it provides income so people
can uh, send their kids to school.

So those are economic engines.

My children are economic engines because I
put a lot of time into them and then they

go out and create uh, businesses and uh,
fund ministries through um, their efforts.

Uh, my barber is my
favorite economic engine.

Lane Kipp: Yeah.

Raymond Harris: And, uh, on a barber
salary, he supports three or four

missionaries in his home country of
Ethiopia and, and his three daughters

are now in the medical profession.

So a poor immigrant has made enough money
in as a barber to send three daughters to,

uh, uh, even the University of Texas, God
forbid, but they went, and I'm an OU grad.

So, and I know you're an A& M guy.

So.

Anyway, those are economic engines.

And so I look for opportunities that
that we can use business principles,

and it could be for profit, it could
be not for profit, it doesn't matter,

God's kingdom doesn't define the
doesn't differentiate between the two.

But businesses and ministries
can become sustainable.

And I guess another another example,
Would be, a lot of ministries

will give, excuse me, a lot of, a
lot of people will give money to

ministries to help anti trafficking.

So they'll give this money away,
and that money will be spent for

a good cause of getting women and
young boys out of trafficking.

But every year, or every, whatever,
they come back for more and more money

because their sustainability model is
truly just getting people to donate.

Well, I know of a young lady.

in China that decided to, uh, help
women in sexual, um, bondage and

in trafficking to get out of their
situation by starting a jewelry company.

Well, that's a for profit business
providing extremely high quality jewelry

that Macy's and Kohl's and people like
that buy and sell in their stores.

They're made by women that
come out of the brothels.

So it's a for profit business doing the
exact same thing that ministries do.

And so that's an economic, that's another
good example of an economic engine.

Takes a lot of creativity and
hard work, but it can be done.

And those with business acumen
can do that kind of stuff.

So, uh, another thing is when Mary Dale
and I invest, we try to invest in things

that build God's kingdom, but also
build it with profit so that we can have

money back to reinvest into the kingdom.

So, that's an economic
engine in my definition,

Lane Kipp: well, I love it.

I love it.

It reminds me I was talking to a guy
the other day about how weird just how

weird generosity is like if if you know,
there's a generosity movement kind of

happening, you know that and I just
think it'd be so weird if there was a

spending movement spend your money spend
your money Whereas there's a generosity

movement of give money give money.

I just think that's uh, It's weird.

And so I love your perspective on, you
just mentioned investments, you know,

seeing for profit nonprofits as kingdom
investments, how are they redeeming

the world and, and, uh, sustainable
financially and, and all that.

I love that.

And you also mentioned, you
know, giving well, it's hard.

And we've talked about this.

So I'd love to hear how, when, when
you're looking at kingdom investments.

Particularly through a non
profit lens, because that's most

of our work, is through that.

We have a couple for profit,
uh, things we invest in.

But, so how do you go navigating,
who do I give to, how do I evaluate

them, how do I monitor their
work, what's, what's your process?

Raymond Harris: Well, first of all,
I'm not smart enough to figure a lot

of things out, so I have to rely on
the influence and the nudging of the

Holy Spirit to know where to go and
who to meet, and allow him to make

introductions for me through other people.

I don't think it's any
more holy than that.

to build an economic engine than it is
to give someone else money to spend.

My theory is if a not for profit or
a ministry can spend my money better

than I can what they do, then I would
be a fool not to give it to him.

But if I can invest that money and
do something more than they can

or better than they can, then I
would be a fool to give it to him.

So I look for who can spend the
money the best to accomplish

what I'm trying to accomplish.

And so I look at ministry leaders,
uh, or, uh, projects through the

lens of, is the leader a steward?

Does he know how to handle money?

And does he realize that the money is not
his, but he's just taking good care of it?

So I pass my stewardship on
to another leader and expect

him to be a good steward.

And if I can find that leader that is a
good steward, then I can entrust money to

him because he'll take good care of it.

Lane Kipp: How do you, how do you
tell if they're a good steward?

Raymond Harris: Well, you
observe what they do with it.

Um, you can, you can look
at financial statements.

You can look at all kinds of
stuff, but I think it's basically

developing a relationship with that
person and getting to know them.

And, um, that's one way.

I think another way is just
what is their effectiveness?

What are they accomplishing?

Now, believe you me, I've, I've
had more than one ministry tell

me that they've saved 100, 000.

hundreds of thousands of people or
millions of people or we've impacted

50 million people and I go, baloney,
come on, dude, I don't believe that.

And ministries just have these huge
numbers and they provide nice brochures

and they tell you all the things they do.

I don't believe about 90 percent of it.

So I'm very skeptical, you know,
if of what the impact is on so many

ministries, you know, it's usually
They use some kind of multiple.

Okay.

We've, you know, I had one, one group
tell me that they've shown the Jesus

film in so many places, and then
that started so many churches and

now that we've affected effectively.

And I said, well, there's not even
that many people in the country

Lane Kipp: Yeah,

Raymond Harris: You know, it's
like you can't use that multiple.

So, so I, I, I go, going back is I
try to develop a relationship with.

If, if I'm going to give them
serious money, now if you're going

to just do a little donation I don't
think it's necessary, it's just.

But if you want to invest, truly
invest in the kingdom and do it well,

I think you need to understand if the
person you're investing in is a steward

and can take care of the kingdom.

When I invest in young men, which I
do, uh, and it can be for profit, not

for profit, I look for three things.

I look for young men.

Because they have a long runway.

So one of the reasons I liked investing
in you Lane is that you're a young guy.

Secondly, you're a hard worker,
I've noticed how hard you worked

when you did my evaluation.

So I look for guys that
are young, hard working.

But they also had to be really,
really good at what they do.

They had to be experts, they have to
be top of their class at what they do.

If I can find those three components,
then I'll put money on them and then see

what they do with it if they're steward.

And, um, it doesn't mean that I can't
invest in a 50 or 60 year old person.

We do that as well.

But if I'm looking for a true
economic engine or something,

I, I really look for the other.

I look for a younger person that's
hardworking, uh, that's extremely

talented or very good at what they do.

It, it's just like any investment.

You have to evaluate the investment
based on what your parameters are.

And ours are those three.

The other thing that I.

I mentioned to you before is I look for,
uh, for four things inside a ministry

or in a or an organization if I'm
going to give them money as opposed to

investing in a for profit situation.

That is, are they efficient
at how they use money?

Now, it doesn't mean that they're cheesy
and cheap and they don't pay their people.

Well, it just means are they efficient?

with their money?

And secondly, is there an
effectiveness in what they do?

Is there truly an effectiveness
and don't give me a bogus report

that you've saved the world?

What are you really
doing that's effective?

Third, is are they indigenous?

In other words, do they work
at the lowest possible level?

So I don't want to pay for someone to
come out of college, go to seminary,

go to four years of language school,
and then go on the mission field.

I'd rather put the money into
locals doing the same work.

I can cut a lot of corners cost wise
if I don't have to go through language

school or, or, you know, hire people
in America and travel and then they

need to come back on furlough all the
time, you know, all that kind of stuff.

That's very inefficient.

But uh, I look for indigenous as,
as far down the indigenous ladders I

can go, uh, is where I try to fund.

And then finally, um, the fourth thing
we look for, um, Well, I just forgot.

I said, efficient, effective,
indigenous, and oh, yeah.

And can they keep
themselves from business?

In other words, I asked
mysteries this all the time.

I said, Do you have something
to sell as a ministry?

And then secondly, who wants to buy it?

I mean, are you really selling
anything anyone really wants?

Are you just keeping yourself busy?

And so I look, I look
for that sustainability.

Are they, do they have
something to sell them?

Is anyone buying it?

That's sustainability.

Because if it's a demanded, if it's
a service that's demanded, or a

project that's demanded, then you
will have someone willing to buy it.

And that means they'll donate
to it, or they'll actually

buy it with actual capital.

So that's, that's more what I look for.

So.

Lane Kipp: and that's what we advocate
for with this platform is a I mean, that's

my perspective is Nonprofits for profits.

We're all a means to an
end including all access.

You know, we're we're service
and so It's our job to do

what's in the best interest of?

those who are investing in us
and I Hope I think Raymond if if

enough You of us, the stewards,
the investors had that perspective.

We could really move the needle
in some areas and do some

amazing things around the world.

Raymond Harris: Yes.

Lane Kipp: yeah,

Raymond Harris: If you, if you could
unlock the, If you could unlock

the capital that's being stored
right now, uh, you could do a lot.

And DAFs, Donor Advised Funds, some
foundations, they lock up a lot of money.

And, uh, I don't know if people have
vapor lock, or they're, they're scared

to invest, but there's a lot of money
in the, um, not for profit sector.

Uh, world that's still sitting in
accounts, waiting to be deployed.

And I, I love financial advisors.

But I want to encourage financial
advisors to, uh, help their clients

understand that if they, if they don't
deploy that money in the kingdom,

it's really not doing any good.

Just sitting there churning at five
to ten percent interest so that

you can give away more money later.

Thank you.

I think God wants the money in the
kingdom sooner so he can compound it at

30, 60, or 100 percent rate of return.

God's rate of return is
a lot better than ours.

You can never match what God can do in
his kingdom, uh, with your money than what

you can do on this earth with your money.

You think you're a good investor, but I
think God can, can outmultiply us, so.

Yeah,

Lane Kipp: yeah, there is a common
problem I'm hearing is, uh, with all

this money stored in foundations and
donor vice funds and And elsewhere,

you know, a common, I think we've
talked about this and you mentioned

it in your book, but a common thing I
hear, uh, with, from folks is what's,

it's hard to find good things to give

Raymond Harris: absolutely.

Lane Kipp: and

Raymond Harris: This is hard
for me to find good places to

invest money in the kingdom as
it was for me to make the money.

Lane Kipp: Hmm.

Raymond Harris: And, uh, I was under
the, uh, illusion that I could make all

this money, and then it would be great
to sit back and invest in the kingdom.

I would just sit back and
invest it and put it out there.

And I realized that I began
investing money as soon as I made it.

And I was finding hard it hard
to invest it well in the kingdom.

Now, everybody clamors for
money, everybody swears that they

are the they are the best and
that they can use your money.

But you know, there's there's 1.

5 million not for profits in America right
now, all clamoring for the same dollars.

And I think I think a great
majority of those ought to go out

of business so that the good ones.

can really deploy more
capital in what they do.

I think there's a lot of seed
corn that's being eaten, um, by,

uh, ineffective not for profits.

I really do.

So, I think we ought to
get rid of a lot of them.

And,

Lane Kipp: And

Raymond Harris: you know, one other
thing I will say, and I didn't mean to

interrupt you, but one thing I will say,
if the tax laws changed dramatically,

it might help that situation.

Lane Kipp: yeah,

Raymond Harris: If you don't get a
write off, people might say, Well, I'm

just not gonna give money away unless
I can find a good place to put it.

Lane Kipp: yep.

And that may, may happen.

And, and you know, if more people had,
uh, this, I don't know what to call it.

Not capitalistic, but this redemptive
perspective on investing, uh, in

ministries and ministries as a means
to an end, driven by impact and

what's most effective, you know, cost
efficient, sustainable, indigenous,

then, uh, The market would be driven
by impact and so the ones who aren't

making as much impact would be weeded
out and That would be a good thing.

I think on behalf of those in

Raymond Harris: accountability, you know.

The danger with not for profit
organizations is they get free

money without accountability.

They don't have to earn the
money, it's just given to them.

They don't have to perform,
it's just given to them.

And then they don't
have to account for it.

And they say, Well, yeah, we do.

We send out a report.

We have a board and all that.

And I say, Well That's all well and good.

You can still pull the wool over anyone's
eyes with a board and with free money.

A real accountability is, are you
making something happen with that money?

In other words, in, in business, you've
got to make more money than you spend, or

you cannot stay in business by definition.

Same with ministries.

They, they stay, they, ministries can
stay, or not for profits can stay in

business forever, even though they don't
do anything if they get in trouble.

Just get money to stay in business.

So they don't have to be efficient.

They don't have to be effective.

They don't have to produce anything if
they get free money, so you know, uh,

just give them, I just don't like giving
people free money to go do good things.

I want them to do something effectively
and so, I'm not too harsh on that

because I do give away money,
you know, for others to spend.

I don't just give money quote,
invest in for profit businesses.

But I do it both ways because
I think God's kingdom is both.

So

Lane Kipp: yeah, yeah, absolutely
well, I want to You've given

a lot of advice on for donors.

I want to pivot because I think it's
chapter 11 in your book talks about

fundraising and I think that's a great
Uh, a nugget of gold for development

directors who are out there interacting
with people who want to give well.

And I still remember the time when we,
I think it was a two, it was a Tuesday.

We got tacos together like we

Raymond Harris: yes,

Lane Kipp: do.

And yeah, taco Tuesday.

And I remember you saying, we're talking
about this about, uh, cause we get

at all access bombarded, uh, as well.

But.

Uh, we were talking about this and
I still remember you saying, Lane,

it's, you know, Tuesday at 1230 and
I've already been asked 13 times

for money this since Monday morning.

And so I'd love for you to, cause
I hear, uh, some non profits

listen to this, uh, basically.

Podcast.

Love for you to share.

I mean, if you were just to give
advice to someone whose role is

raising money for a great cause
and say it's a really impactful

cause, what's your advice to them?

Raymond Harris: I don't have a silver
bullet for the scenario, uh, of

fundraising, but, uh, I originally was
going to entitle that, that particular

chapter, The Potholes of Fundraising.

There, uh, fundraising is a no
win situation, and it's really,

really hard on development people.

And I understand that.

I, I would not want to do
two things in God's kingdom.

One is to have to raise personal
support to go on staff with

someone, and secondly, I would not
want to be a development person.

But, uh, Henry Nowen had written
a nice little booklet called

The Spirituality of Fundraising.

One of the things he said that really
impacted me is he said, number one, the,

the development person must really believe
in what he's raising funds for, he has

to be totally committed to the cause.

It's just not a job.

Secondly, that if you're approaching
someone To be a part of that ministry

or that organization by funding them,
it has to be in the best interest of

that person, not for the ministry.

So if it if it's not on the heart of
that person, then you shouldn't, um,

you know, um, persuade them or, you
know, been there are behind their

back or, you know, try to coerce them
into giving to your organization.

It's kind of like do what's best for him.

In other words, follow the golden rule.

What is best for that person,
and then help him figure out

where he would best invest.

So good development people would be like
in the the movie that is always shown

at Christmas, Christmas on 34th Street,
or however, whatever that one is work.

Um, the Macy's, uh, where the Santa
Claus at Macy's was, uh, telling

all the customers where it was
best to get the toys for their kids

because it was best for the customer.

And then Macy's took on that, that
philosophy of what's best for the

customer would be what's best for us.

And so I've taken that philosophy with
myself is what's best for the other guy

will eventually be what's best for me.

And so if development people would look at
potential donors and investors as what's

best for them, then they will not only do
the, you know, exercise the golden rule,

but they'll actually make a good friend.

And so my thought is, you know,
fundraising is very difficult.

And it's, it's, I said in the very
last part of the chapter, it's a no

win situation, because it's so hard.

But you know, God even uses those
situations for his glory, and

and he will use the brokenness of
this world for his own purposes.

So it's a broken system.

It's hard, but God still uses it.

He still accomplishes his purpose.

So there's not a silver bullet.

There's not a right way to raise funds.

Um, I think that if churches had done
their a better job in the past, then Uh,

and they had raised up their congregations
better to be individual ministers of

the gospel instead of having someone
professionally being the minister.

Then so many not for profits
wouldn't have rised to the top

to take the place of the church.

So evangelism, church planting,
missionaries, sending out missionaries.

Those were all done through ministries
and not for profits, and that really

should have come out of the church itself.

But the church failed in that.

And so a lot of ministries came up.

I was raised in the in the campus
crusade, um, organization crew.

And that was raised up because evangelism
wasn't wasn't happening on college

campuses, and it wasn't happening around
the world and crew became this huge

organization to really, I think, take
the place of where the church had failed.

I think navigators, same thing.

Young life, uh, all began to rise up
in the 50s, 1950s, 1940s, 1950s because

the church wasn't doing their job.

So if the church was doing their job
and we as church congregates were

doing our job, you wouldn't have
that many not for profits out there.

They'd be taking care of business,
but, um, it's the brokenness of our

world and the brokenness of church, so.

Anyway, it's a messy situation.

Chapter 11 is a messy chapter.

Yeah.

Lane Kipp: think it's, like I said,
I think it's gold, um, for people in

this space, the, the fundraising space,
like I said, even for really good.

And it should be hard.

I mean, nine out of ten startups fail.

So, if it's, if we see ourselves
as a means to an end, a service,

I mean, there's no guarantee
that it's going to work, even if

it's a great product or service.

So, it's um, What I've found is the
best, most funded organizations are

not because of their ask or, The way
they fundraise, it's, they're fundable.

And I think that's the way it
should be is just, just be fundable.

And I think God will take
care of you from there.

Raymond Harris: Absolutely.

That's exactly right.

And that's that efficiency and
effectiveness that we all want.

And, um, I think, you know,
Hudson Taylor said it well.

He said, God's work done God's
way will never lack God's supply.

And I think we've, we, So many times
ask God to bless what we think he

wants done and we really need just
to ask God What do you want done?

And I'll go do it

Lane Kipp: Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, Raymond, I appreciate you
taking the time to, to share this.

I, uh, again, just encourage
people to, to get the book

Enduring Wealth by Raymond Harris.

Raymond, you've been a blessing
in my life, just a mentor of mine.

And, and I really appreciate.

All of these conversations in the
tacos it's just been really helpful.

And I do pray more people have this same
perspective because I really believe

if more of us did, we could accomplish
some amazing things in the world, both

as, uh, the financial equity and sweat
equity parts of it come together.

So, Raymond, thanks for
taking the time to do this.

Raymond Harris: Thanks for the
privilege of being with you

Lane Kipp: Awesome.

Well, I appreciate it,
and we'll grab tacos soon.

Thanks, Raymond.