The All Access Podcast

Brandon Giella: Hello and welcome back to
another episode of the All Access Podcast.

I have not been on a show in a while, so
Lane, it's good to be back on with you.

I'm excited to talk about our topic today.

We are talking about a
redeemed perspective of giving.

And so Lane, you and I talk
quite a bit about money, about

giving, about having impact in the
world, about a theology of work.

And how essentially the Christian
worldview really impacts everything

that we, that we do, everything that we
are and, and our, our families and our

work, and all kinds of different things.

And so I would love to just have like
an informal conversation about how

you view giving and money from this
kind of redemptive lens or a redeemed

Christian worldview in the way that
you're approaching, the way that you

think about money, the way that you
have conversations with people and

help them think about money, because
of course, as an impact advisor,

helping people think through their
giving and their philanthropic efforts,

it's really key to have a coherent.

Vision for what money is
supposed to do anyway.

And so we work, which produces
money, and then we're supposed

to do things with our money.

So we have to have a theology of
work, a theology of money, and then

a theology of giving, if you will.

And so in that vein, I would love
to hear how do you approach giving

from your perspective when you're
having a conversation, let's say

with your average churchgoer?

So this is a Christian who, let's
say they've been Christian maybe for

five years, maybe their whole lives,
but they've never really developed

what you might call like a really
robust, robust or rich theological

worldview or biblical worldview.

And so I'm thinking here.

What's calling to mind is like,
Abraham Kuper saying there's not

one square inch of all of life.

That Christ who is King
Lord overall says mine.

You know that he's, you know,
that his lordship is over

every square inch of life.

And so, and not everybody
has that kind of perspective.

So when you are entering those kind
of conversations, where do you begin?

How do you even set up that kind of vision
for somebody to have about their money?

Lane Kipp: It's funny, Brandon, you
know, we talk to donors all the time.

You know people who.

Our believers typically, they want to
give, well, nobody really wants to not

give well, but to be honest, man, I, I'm
convinced that many of us have thanks

to the Western Church, to be honest.

We have a very broken perspective on
giving and money as we've talked quite

a bit about but particularly giving
'cause that's where we talked to.

That's what we talk about
with people all the time.

I mean, we're giving advisors, we
help people give, well, particularly

making an impact in the world.

And as believers, we want all people
to have access to the gospel and,

and freedom from extreme poverty
and about half the world doesn't.

And so we wanna make
an impact towards that.

But when we talk to people and invite
them to the fund at all access and talk

about their own giving and financial
strategies, we have just learned that.

And I'm included in this Brandon, you
know, when I was a young engineer building

yachts in Florida, dream job wanted to
give, well, like I had a very Christian

nationalism view of giving of to not feel
guilty about my earning and my lifestyle.

I'll give 10% to my church.

'cause that's the tithe, right?

we'll get, I'm sure we'll get
into in a second, but there is

no tithe in the New Testament.

You know, I go to church on Sunday.

That's what you do, so you
don't, you don't feel guilty,

be part of a small group.

I, to be honest, what I experienced
was a very guilt based faith, including

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Lane Kipp: our giving.

And that is just such a sad, sad life.

And I was just convinced, man,
there's gotta be more than this.

And so, I mean, I.

Quit my job, sold everything,
moved internationally to serve.

And I've done a lot of crazy stuff
in my life that I think I can save

a lot of other people from doing it.

Making those mistakes themselves.

Brandon Giella: Don't do what Lane did.

Lane Kipp: No don't.

But what it can, what I can do is help you
from everything I've learned and I want to

a really good theology master's program.

To learn all of this and to try to
redeem my broken perspective on giving.

And that's what we do is share

that with others, help them starting
from their financial strategy.

You know, what, how does
giving play a part in that?

And once they have giving as a
part of their financial strategy,

how much are we gonna give?

How do we give?

What is your own giving strategy?

Who do we give to?

How much to where?

How are we holding 'em accountable?

What's our plan?

What are we trying to
accomplish with that?

And as believers, we pray and I encourage
people to have the great commission,

great commandment as a part of your
giving strategy, a significant part of it.

And so we do all this advising, but
it all starts with that perspective.

And from a fear-based, like guilt based,
obligation based perspective on giving to.

What I call a redeemed perspective,
which is as believers, we're here

to follow Jesus in redeeming the
world to himself and to each other.

And giving is a really cool asset
that we have to help us in doing that.

So it's kinda like if you're a runner and
you're running a race like you are there,

you're at the marathon to run and you
need running shoes to help you do that.

Giving I feel like is a.

A great, I mean, kinda like running
shoes almost seem the most important

asset you have in doing that when it
comes to helping people around the world.

Great commission, great commandment.

And so it all starts with that
perspective of my life is I'm here to

make disciples of all nations, love our
neighbors around the world and be with

Jesus, kinda like a John Mark Comer

of being with Jesus.

And becoming like him.

And a part of that is our, our giving.

It's a really amazing, incredible
time in the world that we can be a

part of what God's doing around the
world financially pretty easily.

I

say that it, there's a lot of,
to do it, well, it takes a lot of

research, but I mean, at the click

of a button you can give online,
you know, all access to give towards

what's, what God's doing in some
of the darkest places in the world.

I mean, we're talking about.

Jihadist places in
Pakistan, south Sud, I mean,

war torn places like South
Sudan, some of those.

So, that's what we're about.

That's the perspective we try to bring,
and there's lots of specifics and advice

that we share with that, but it all
starts with that redeem perspective.

You were here to be a part of Jesus.

Redeeming the world,
starting with ourselves.

You know, if we, if we haven't
reconciled or repented.

To redeem our own lives in light of
what Christ has done for us to do that

ourselves and then join God, join Jesus
in doing that with others, inviting them

into it and giving is just a part of that.

And so,

What that leads us to is some of the
stuff we've been taught growing up, you

know, give 10% to your local church.

What about the needs in our own
community, you know, this or that,

giving to our friends, it, it makes a
lot of that more, we, it redeems those

perspectives and it, you go, why are we,

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Lane Kipp: Why are we doing some of this?

And

hopefully it, it pulls
you out of that thinking.

So there's a lot to be
shared there for sure.

Brandon Giella: Yeah, it, it's a
complicated, it's, it's very complex.

I mean, what you just described is like.

Our vocational life, things
that we were taught when we were

young that are quasi biblical.

You know, like the idea of giving
10% of is of course biblical.

You see that several times in the

Old Testament, but to your point, you
don't see that in the New Testament.

So did something change?

Well, then that gets into the Old
Testament, new Testament theology, and

you know, the, the role of the law and the
role of Israel and many different things.

And we do have, by the way, on
the, the podcast, if you go to a

previous show on tithing just search
for tithing and all access, and

you'll see that episode come up.

And it's a very helpful perspective
on the history and the nature and

the context of the, the tithe and
what that means for Christians today.

But I think what you were getting at
is that vision or that imagination,

like what does that spark or what
is that like more all encompassing.

Vision that, that somebody might have.

And I, I'll maybe share a little bit
of where I came from and, and how

my perspective on money was has been
changing over the last couple of years.

Very quickly, I, I think I mentioned this
on another show, but I'm part of this

research group out of Cambridge called
the Kirby Lang Center for Public Theology.

And we've been talking about
how to steward capital from a

theological perspective, from this
kind of redeemed perspective of,

of capital and money in general.

There's theologians in the group,
there's financial professionals,

wall Street vets folks that are asset
managers or private wealth advisors,

and they have a very robust worldview.

After years and years
and years of trainings.

Many of them have been to seminary.

And then.

Ended up getting MBAs or became, you
know, financial pros or getting PhDs.

One of them is getting a
PhD at Oxford on this topic.

And they raised these kind of questions
like if you are advising a, a couple that,

let's say they're very ultra high net
worth couple, should they sign a prenup?

You know, or if you are investing, should
you invest passively in an index fund or

does that remove your accountability that
God has for you and your, your dollars?

You know, so should Christians use
index funds or ETFs or mutual funds,

and then maybe there's ESG and
there's, you know, the, the sin stocks.

We should avoid those.

Then in that case, should we invest
only in a concentrated portfolio?

Should it be in equities?

Maybe we should.

Should it be commodities real estate?

Should it be private markets?

Like there's all kinds of ways to
think about, but it, and then it comes

down to how do I view retirement?

Why am I investing in a index
fund, let's say in the vanguard?

Should I do that because I know
I'm supposed to get a 9% return

over 40 years, that compounds and
then I can retire comfortably.

'cause I have four and a half
million dollars and I have a 4%

safe withdrawal rate, and then
I can do to blah, blah, blah.

It's part of my 60 40 portfolio that
may or may not work anymore because.

Public equities are kind of what they are.

Bonds are what they are right now.

So there's, it like raises
all these questions.

Why?

Why is any of these returns or
retirement pegged to a 9% s and p?

It's pegged to the s and p
performance over the last 40 years.

Well, the last 40 years is not the
next 40 years, that's for sure.

But also, why is 9%?

Why does that matter?

Should Christians think about
it completely differently?

And it turns out that so many of
these assumptions we have about our

financial models are just arbitrary,
or they're not Christian at all.

They're just the American
dream, the American standard.

And so then it raises all these questions,
but if you don't have a strong biblical

worldview, you don't know how to.

Navigate these questions, which then
raises the question, how do you, or how

should you develop a worldview so that
you can think about money and giving

and spending and saving rightly, and
it, going through this process with

this group, over the last two and a half
years, I've realized I don't really have

a strong theology of, of money or capital.

Like what's the nature of a business?

What's the nature of our modern economy?

You know, I mean, there's
just so many different.

Questions that it all stems from,
you need a robust biblical worldview.

And that takes about 15 years of
like active study to start to get

just the bare grasp of what that is.

And so that, that's, that's my take.

I don't know how you would feel
about that, but that's, these are the

questions I've been wrestling with too.

And I, and I've loved our, our podcast
'cause it helps give a frame for,

for giving and how to do that well.

But part of it is just like, man, what
do we, what are, what is the city of God?

What does it look like?

How do we get there?

How do I spend my life and my money
building the kingdom that is one day going

to come down to Earth and be built here?

Or is this the kingdom now?

Are we living in it?

I don't know.

So many different, anyway, what,

what are your

thoughts on all, everything I just said?

Lane Kipp: one of a
hundred on this series.

So,

Brandon Giella: I know.

I feel like it's,

Lane Kipp: well, it is
'cause it is, it's a lot.

I mean, I've, I have spent the last

six years obsessing over particularly
the impact space of loving our

neighbors around the world,
making disciples of all nations.

How do we do that?

Well.

Money

plays a very, very important part
of that for most Christians here.

It is like the way we play a part in that.

So my take, you know, Brandon is
you know, believers could spend

the next 15 years individually
all trying to figure this out.

Brandon Giella: Hmm.

Lane Kipp: my philosophy
is just come join us.

We were trying to make all access a
tool and a community of kinda like

Jesus and the disciples where
he said, come follow me.

He didn't say, Hey,

you should have this
perspective, this take 15 years

to study this and figure it out for
yourself, but come with us as we're a

group of believers who wanna make an
impact in the world with our lives.

Carrying out this perspective
better and better in our own

lives, learning as we go.

But we have, we have learned a lot in
the last six years on this journey.

Since I, you know, left engineering
became a missionary in Haiti, wrestling

with this in person there, and then back
in the states after we had to evacuate,

going back into professional business
and in grad school figuring this out.

So, I would love, I mean, there
are starting to be tools out

there to help people with their
investing like that because it's,

that's,

I think what's great about
the open market is like.

There's a need.

If more of us have long for
this, Hey, we don't wanna invest

in index funds and all of this.

We want to invest in what's
not taking advantage of people.

It, it promotes god godly values.

Well, it'd be great if there are
more tools that pop up and there

are, there're starting to pop up.

Still think we have a long way to go.

But that's where all Access is
trying to be that tool and that

community to help people do that.

Where, you come with us.

But the more redeem your perspective is
on your own giving, the more enjoyable

it is, the more you're gonna participate.

Because what hap you know, we talk
with, I sit down with somebody and I

go, you know, tell me about what you're
passionate about, what you like giving to.

And pretty often, Brandon, it's and
I may catch flack from the local

church on this is, well, yeah, we
just give 10% to the local church.

Because we just tithe 10%
to the local church and,

Brandon Giella: which by
the way is above average.

Like that even in itself is an

Lane Kipp: oh yeah.

Yeah.

I

mean, it's

like the average is

Brandon Giella: You know, it's
like five times the average.

Lane Kipp: Yeah.

Average is 2%.

And so, and and the last thing I wanna
do is make anybody feel bad about that.

But what I usually ask

next is, is why, and that's where I,

it's.

You start seeing more

of the guilt, the fear of like,
well, this is what the Bible says I'm

supposed to do, so I'll just do it.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Lane Kipp: And man, it's
just a lot better than that.

It's a lot better than that.

So yeah, I do recommend people go listen
back to the episode we did on the tithe.

I mean, the summary is there is
no tithe in the New Testament.

You know, Jesus fulfilled
the, the Old Testament.

He never recommended the tithe
in the New Testament, Paul.

None of the other New Testament writers
ever did, even though they had ample

opportunity to, but what you do see
is, is this redeemed perspective

where their whole life, not just the

tithe, is now

following Jesus and
giving is a part of it.

You see it throughout the Book
of Acts and, and particularly

in First Corinthians as well.

Brandon Giella: yeah.

And doing so joyfully and cheerfully.

I think that's the other thing
too, is like it should be a

joy to give your money away.

Is it for you?

I think that's like maybe yellow flag
one is like, is it a joy to be generous

with the way that God has blessed you?

If not, that's where that
redeemed perspective can come in.

Is your, is your, vision really redeemed?

Lane Kipp: And it's a, there's discipline
in this as well, kinda like where we, I

do enjoy reading the Bible, but I do need.

To help.

I need help, like setting aside
time to where I do that because it,

with young kids, it's hard.

Things like that.

So the same thing with giving, like,
yes, it should be, it is a joy and we

try to make it really enjoyable at all.

Access.

Part of the problem is I would say
the, the nonprofit sector has not done

a great job of making it enjoyable.

We're trying to do a better job at
that and make it really enjoyable.

But there's some disciplines
that help with that.

So a financial strategy
that includes giving.

So if you're a W2, you know, the
first what we do is just take the

first percentile that we want to give
out, and then we, you know, invest

and save and, and spend after that.

That way we, we have the fun money
up front of, hey, this is dedicated

towards our, what we're here to
do, what we want to do with our

lives the mission god's put us on.

This is a special asset that is there.

We don't need any return for
ourselves in this, but there

to, to be supportive of that.

And, you know, if you like running,
getting new running shoes should be fun.

Like putting on your
running shoes should be fun.

Getting out there and using

them should be fun.

And that's what we're trying to

do is get people in the game, get
people on this mission, come with us.

But the more they can start having
this redeemed perspective of giving,

the more enjoyable it's gonna
be and the more impact they're

gonna make with their own lives.

And I, I pray, man, I pray that
the Western Church will embrace

this as well because I fear there
could be pushback there for a fear

out of a lack of as
they're pushed for budgets.

Hey, my, I'd love your
thoughts on this too, Brandon.

My radical thought when it comes to
churches when it comes to giving is.

Don't give towards missions.

Like the church is not responsible towards
giving outside of the walls of the church.

I don't know if that's a right

view yet, but let that be the people.

Let the people, which is a
church make that those decisions.

The church can help
facilitate that, but there's

never, so, like people will say,
well, I get my local church,

and then they get to whoever.

Well, there's.

Little to no accountability ever
in that like the elders, if you

have an elder board, is making those
decisions, not you as an individual and

you have no real connection with it.

But my philosophy is, hey, if, if
churches feel cramped, like starved

on their own budget anyway, just let
us believers give to missions outside

of the church and let, Hey, we're
giving the church to put the lights on.

We're giving the missions
organizations to advance the gospel.

And just

make it really clear as opposed to give

everything to the church and a slice
goes to missions and we don't even, we

have no, we have no idea what it is, who
it was to, how that decision was made.

Radical

idea.

I don't know.

I'm talking to some church planners
about that and seeing if they'll bite

Brandon Giella: Yeah, I know it's.

That's a great thought.

I mean, I know people in churches
where I am, where they're considering

leaving their church because the church
doesn't give enough toward missions

and they want to be a sent out one
from the church, and if the church is

not resourcing them, they're actually
leaving and going to another church.

Is that right?

I don't know.

It it, I think it, this comes back down to
your, you know, your biblical worldview.

What is your ecclesiology.

What do you believe about
the church's role in society?

Is it to be, there's like two kind of
frameworks and there's a a million,

but the two big ones are is church
meant to draw believers to itself, like

representing, the kingdom of, of Israel,
Jerusalem, which was supposed to draw

people to itself be a shining city upon
a hill, or is it supposed to be sent out?

It is equipped, equipping for the
believers to send people outward.

And so one is inward, one is
outward, and from there I think

you might be able to derive some,

Lane Kipp: Yeah,

Brandon Giella: ideas about what,
what the role of missions is

Lane Kipp: and

I don't think it has to
be either or really of.

Brandon Giella: Sure.

Yeah.

Lane Kipp: Like, I would imagine
the Church of Acts, you know,

like Acts two and Acts four, where
like there's beautiful passage in

Acts two about, I think it's 2 42,
about what the church was doing.

You know, coming together and

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Lane Kipp: fellowshiping
together, breaking bread together,

people were getting baptized.

That's super attractive.

Like I would

want to be a part of that.

At the same time, they're also sending
people out because they didn't have

computers back then and couldn't.

Evaluate nonprofits and Ephesus, you
know, from Jerusalem and, and find who can

best make disciples and Ephesus.

So they had to send Paul and you see
that like between Acts 13, they like send

Paul and, and Barnes and these guys out.

And then what's fun is I think
it's like Acts 15, 16, 17, 1 of

those times Paul comes back through
and reports back of what he did.

Brandon Giella: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lane Kipp: I think it's both and, but all

when it comes to how do we

make more disciples and help more of
our brothers and sisters in Christ

around the world, out of extreme
poverty, let's, how about this?

We don't put that burden
on the, our elders and

our teaching pastor and the
intern at the church, you know?

I just, they,

they're trying to keep, they're
trying to shepherd their local church.

Well keep the lights on and we're putting
this little bit of unnecessary burden.

And we're, honestly, we're kind of
outsourcing it if you think about

it to them to say, we just hope
that this helps somebody somewhere.

And I mean, all access, we are, we're
a tool to help people to do that.

Well, people could outsource it
to us but we're hoping they get

really involved and engaged.

Wanna go see it themselves and meet the
folks and come together and all of that.

So, I don't know, that's
my wacky thought on giving

Brandon Giella: I feel like we need a
whole episode on just like hot takes

from Lane because, because when you say
things like that, it's like, ah, you

know, I've never really thought about it.

'cause you just, that's what churches do.

We just, they have people that
they support admissions and that's

what part of the budget goes to.

And it's just like, yeah,
it's what that, of course.

But it's like, should they ha.

I don't know.

Actually, that's a

great question.

Lane Kipp: Well I think the,

Brandon Giella: yeah,

Lane Kipp: thing for me is like
none of us in the congregation

have any say in that we have

Brandon Giella: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Lane Kipp: for me, in like an
SBC church and we, like, we

have great elders and I love our
church and you know, we get to our

local church and all that, but
I do think it would be really.

Fruitful to have like a separate, or
the church has a separate front and

we the people choose like, and give
towards certain initiatives and put

that burden back on the people where it
should be and not on, you know, again,

the staff and all of this, of trying
to figure that out with no input or,

or vote on any of that from the people.

So.

Brandon Giella: I don't know.

That sounds too democratic.

That's way too American for me.

I don't, I don't like that.

Lane Kipp: Radical.

I know, right?

Brandon Giella: No, I like that.

I like that idea.

I've never really thought about it.

Okay.

So what is, what is the takeaway for
you in the last, like 60 seconds?

Like a redeemed perspective of giving
is or should be, or think about this?

What would you say?

Lane Kipp: Yeah.

Yeah.

So it would be our whole being.

We are disciples who are joining
Jesus and redeeming the world

to himself and, and to others.

And giving is a part of that.

And so when you view it through that
lens, you can be way more impactful.

You'll start thinking less about
I just gotta give 10% to feel less

guilty about myself and more on man.

I really want our friends in South
Asia to have access to the gospel where

there are over a billion people who have
no access to the gospel in that area.

I want that to happen.

Who can best do that?

I want to give towards that.

And so it, if that's our end goal, if
we're joining Jesus and redeeming the

world and giving as an asset to be
used, when we have that perspective,

we'll typically start being more
impact driven and focused on that.

And all Access is simply a
tool to help people do that.

Brandon Giella: It's beautiful.

It's beautiful.

It is a life changing vision
once you grab hold of it.

Lane Kipp: Yeah, changed my life for sure.

Brandon Giella: same.

Same.

It's changed actively changing mine.

That's for sure.

Well Lane, thank you.

I always enjoy our conversations.

I'm glad to be back on
the show just this once.

But we will have many more episodes
talking about these kind of things,

but one of them I think should
be just Hot Takes from Lane.

We'll go from there.

Lane Kipp: Well, I've

Brandon Giella: thanks as always.

Lane Kipp: I've obsessed
over this last six years.

So I've got a an index of all of
these I've been wrestling with, so.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Maybe it's you know, in math they
have those millennial problems.

There's like seven millennial
problems that nobody can really solve.

And that'd be fun to have like
a millennial problems episode.

It's things that, like, you've been
actively doing this and meeting with

experts all around the world who have
been thinking deeply about these things.

And there's still these, like,
they're just complex, nuanced

conversations practically
and theologically.

It'd be fun to kind of talk to 'em

Lane Kipp: That would be fun.

And, but

our initial call to action is
like, come join us on, on this,

Brandon Giella: Yes.

No, agreed.

Lane Kipp: I just,

I'm so grateful that did that instead
of coming and telling us, Hey, you gotta

spend 15 years in Jewish theology school.

Instead just say, Hey, come follow me.

And by the grace of God I'm trying.

So it's been good.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough.

I, I'm one of the nerds that
I like to sit and ponder these

questions that have no real outcome.

I just like thinking about 'em.

Anyway appreciate you for being on
the ground and making it happen.

Well thank you again for the show.

Thank you for your expertise
and we will see you next time.

Lane Kipp: All right.

Thanks Brandon.